Gay Dating Facebook
Hey, you don't have to tell me it's tough being gay, single and over 50. It's not like gay subculture has given us lots of happily dating, older gay male role models. With all the focus on marriage equality these days, it's easy for gay men to think that being single and happy is an oxymoron. Grindr is pretty much universally known as one of the most popular gay dating apps around. In the 2018 movie “Love, Simon,” Simon’s dad hilariously refers to it as “Like Facebook for gays.” Not exactly. It’s more like a slam book for gays.
Available for gay, bi, trans, and other queer singles, Grindr is one of the most popular dating apps with a reputation of men seeking hookups with other men. Thanks to its powerful geolocation feature, Grindr is a great social networking solution for people who’ve recently moved, relocated, are traveling, or seeking a quick fling in their area. Lovetastic is explicitely not for men looking to hook up with hunks of burning love. “Finally, gay personals that treat you like a person,” the site says. Lovetastic says its goal. Senior Gay Dating. 2,309 likes 106 talking about this. Discover a fun & safe dating community of senior gay singles looking for love, join 100% free today!
This article is the third installment in an ongoing investigation by the GBH News Center for Investigative Reporting, titled Unseen: The Boy Victims of the Sex Trade. Read part one here and part two here.German Chavez was 14 years old when he first started using a gay dating app called Grindr to find adult men to pay him for sex.
He needed to help his troubled single mother pay the bills, he said, and had no trouble finding men to purchase him on the popular location-based mobile app.
Now 25 and years away from the sex trade, Chavez is warning other minors to stay away from Grindr, one of the most popular apps in the country for gay and bisexual men.
“Things that can be bad can happen to you, possibilities of death, [going] missing or being locked in a room where you can be taken advantage of as a sex object,’’ said Chavez, who now lives in Malden. “It’s an at-your-own risk place.”
The company touts its mobile platform as “The World’s Largest Social Networking App for Gay, Bi, Trans and Queer People” and says its users have to be 18 years old and older.
But the app is teeming with underage gay, bisexual and questioning boys, according to researchers, child exploitation specialists and users like Chavez who say they can easily lie about their age to gain access to the service.
Many LGBTQ teens are seeking connection in a world that provides few safe spaces, researchers say. Some like Chavez are looking to find sex buyers to survive. But an investigation by the the GBH News Center for Investigative Reporting finds that too often the adult men they meet are dangerous and the encounters can lead to sexual exploitation, assault and trafficking.
“It creates an easy place for sexual predators to look for these kids,” said Jack Turban, a fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. “Grindr is also at fault for knowing that this is happening and not doing anything about it.”
Since 2015, more than 100 men across the United States — including police officers, priests and teachers — have faced charges related to sexually assaulting minors or attempting sexual activity with youth they met on Grindr, according to a GBH News search of public records.
Among them, a Lawrence police officer is currently facing charges in Essex County Superior Court for allegedly raping a 13-year-old he met on the app in 2018. The officer pleaded not guilty, and the next hearing is scheduled for August. He declined to comment for this story.
In 2019, a former Newburyport City Council president was sentenced to 2 ½ years in state prison after pleading guilty to raping a 15-year-old he met on Grindr. And in 2017, a Colorado man was sentenced to 50 years in prison for luring underage boys he met on Grindr into sexual servitude.
The app also has become a rich hunting ground for law enforcement and self-described activists modeled after the former NBC program, “To Catch a Predator.” Groups across the country are looking to shame adult men seeking sex with children and, in some cases, turning them over to the police. They pose as underage boys and then film their interactions with men who come to meet them.
A Northborough man appears to have fallen into this trap last year. He is facing charges in Fitchburg District Court for allegedly attempting to meet a 15-year-old boy on Grindr, who turned out to be a decoy. He pleaded not guilty, and a jury trial is scheduled for October. He couldn’t be reached for comment.
But for sexual predators, Grindr provides a space to find many real underage boys. More than half of sexually active gay and bisexual boys between the ages of 14 and 17 find sexual partners on Grindr and other similar apps, according to a 2018 study by Northwestern University researchers. Grindr is by far the most popular dating app among teens, the research shows.
It creates an easy place for sexual predators to look for these kids.
Jack Turban, a fellow in child and adolescent psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine
Grindr did not respond to multiple requests for comment. It is one of a dizzying array of apps, websites, gaming sites and chat rooms on the Internet where boys and girls are stalked by sexual predators, law enforcement and anti-trafficking specialists say.
And online hazards have surged during the pandemic. The number of reports of adults seeking children online for sex nearly doubled to 38,000 last year from the year before, according to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. About 13 percent of the alleged victims were boys. But an ongoing GBH investigation has found that the number of male victims is vastly under-reported — partly because boys don’t disclose what happened, stifled by fear, shame and stigma, and partly because society often has trouble seeing them as victims at all.
Turban recently co-published an article in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry estimating that about one quarter of all gay and bisexual adolescent males are using Grindr and similar apps — likely hundreds of thousands of youth nationwide.
He’s seen gay teens end up at an emergency room in Boston — where he worked until last year — in crisis after being sexually exploited by men they met on Grindr yet too ashamed to seek help from other adults.
He says he has received some pushback from members of the gay community about his focus on Grindr, when there are so many sites targeting children. There’s a history of anti-gay propaganda painting gay men as pedophiles, he said, when there is no research to show they are more likely to be predators than others.
But Turban says homophobia is also to blame for why LGBTQ youth have so few outlets to find intimacy and also why their victimization is so seldom talked about. He says clinicians and family members should do more to talk to gay youth about the health and safety risks of dating apps. And he says Grindr and other apps should do more to restrict their access.
“Because we haven’t created developmentally appropriate safe spaces, these kids have been forced online onto these spaces that aren’t safe for them,” he said.
Grindr was created in 2009 by Israeli-born, Tufts University graduate Joel Simkhai. He sold a controlling share of the company in 2016 to a Chinese company for a reported $93 million and eventually relinquished full ownership. Last year, the company was purchased by a U.S.-based company for more than $600 million.
Grindr claims on its website that millions of users flock to the site every day — using its location-based technology to help people connect to others close to them.
Bradley Tyrrell, 35, of Newton says the app is a “double-edged sword” — a place to meet gay men but also with many unknowns. Tyrrell said he met his boyfriend on the Grindr but also has been “catfished,” meaning recruited by men lying about their identity. Offers from prostitutes are common, he said, and he believes minors should stay away. “It’s the wild west of the gay world.”
Kathryn Macapagal, a research professor at Northwestern University, says she first asked teens about hook-up apps in 2016 when she was preparing a sex education program for gay and bisexual boys.
She was surprised by the answers. The majority of sexually active teens said they had met people through apps and most of them had sexual encounters with their on-line hookups; only about a quarter of those who had sex said they used condoms.
Her team conducted more surveys to talk about why they get on the apps — often gay and questioning teens looking for community in a world that doesn’t welcome them.
Teens also told her why they would stop. “There were so many teens that use that exact same phrase, ‘creepy older guys who just wanted to have sex,’” she said.
German Chavez is 6-foot-2 with a wide smile, a round face and a joyous laugh.
He identifies as non-binary, sometimes male and sometimes female, and is open to being addressed by all gender pronouns. She performs as a drag queen using the stage name Lady German. On a recent Saturday, Chavez attended a Trans Resistance Vigil and March in Franklin Park dressed as a woman with thick red lipstick, bright yellow tights and high heels. The following week he spoke to GBH reporters in the Boston Common dressed as a man in a T-shirt and jeans after leaving his day job in a pharmacy.
Chavez says he first turned to Grindr in middle school hoping to learn from others about what it means to be gay, questions he couldn’t answer at home. He was living in Florida with his siblings and his single mother. The first man he met was 60 years old. Instead of connection, he said, the man groped him at a diner and brought him to his home to sexually assault him.
He said Grindr hook-ups gave him the false impression being gay was all about sex.
“Just because I was introduced to this one guy who probably isn’t gay and just is a pedophile, like, it doesn’t mean that that’s how the community is,” he said. “That’s the scary part about Grindr, that it can be, like, literally a guy who doesn’t identify as gay and just likes kids.”
That’s the scary part about Grindr, that it can be, like, literally a guy who doesn’t identify as gay and just likes kids.
German Chavez
A year later, Chavez says he started selling sex on Grindr to help his financially struggling family; his activity increased a few years later after he ran away to New York City and was on his own. He met men who assaulted him, beat him and fleeced him, he said.
Asked why he never sought help, Chavez grew emotional.
“You kind of feel like because you’re raising yourself, it’s your fault. So you don’t want to talk about it,” he said, trying to keep back tears. “When you think about it, it’s like, ‘no, you’re a kid, you are supposed to be in high school playing or your parents are supposed to be taking care of you.’”
Chavez said he was able to stop selling sex after he discovered drag, giving him confidence and another way to make money. Chavez still has Grindr on his phone, using the location-based technology to identify men he has met at a club before they get too far out of range. Sometimes underage boys reach out to him, he says, recognizing his role as Lady German, and he cautions them to delete the app.
Chavez says it’s important to talk about the problems he has faced in order to protect others.
“The gay community can be the most colorful place in the world,” he said. “But it has the darkest secrets and darkest places ever because there are these things like this that are not talked about.”
Grindr says in its terms of service that it restricts users to 18 and older but cautions it makes no effort to verify identities.
Part of the reason Grindr can say this is because it is protected by federal law. The 1996 law, known as Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, shields companies from legal liability for content created by others.
Supporters like the Electronic Frontier Foundation say the law is “one of the most valuable tools for protecting freedom of information on the Internet.” Without it, advocates say, companies like Facebook, Amazon and Yelp would not be able to function, because they would be required to vet every review, article or comment published on their sites.
The law protected Grindr in 2015 when a New Jersey man sued the company after he was charged with sexually assaulting a 13-year-old boy whom he met, via a third person, on the app.
The man claimed in U.S. District Court in New Jersey that he didn’t know the boy was underage because the app restricts users to 18 and up. A federal court judge dismissed the case, citing Section 230’s “Good Samaritan” clause, which protects Internet providers from being “treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.”
But a growing number of advocates and public officials are calling for reforms to Section 230 to hold companies more accountable for dangers, including their role in sex trafficking.
Texas attorney Annie McAdams is hoping she can change the way judges look at the law. She’s filed three suits in Texas state courts against Facebook, arguing that the company is not just a publisher but that it’s “participating and facilitating” in the sex trafficking of children.
Facebook asked the Texas Supreme Court to dismiss the cases, citing Section 230. In late June, the state’s top court ruled in McAdams’ favor, stating that the law protects companies for actions of their users. But “holding internet platforms accountable for their own misdeeds is quite another thing. This is particularly the case for human trafficking.”
The court sent the cases back to district court to allow the plaintiffs to try to prove their allegations of wrongdoing. Facebook officials said last week that they are “reviewing the decision” to decide about any next steps. “Sex trafficking is abhorrent and not allowed on Facebook,” a company spokesman said. “We will continue our fight against the spread of this content and the predators who engage in it.”
McAdams says she has amassed a group of clients to file more suits if she doesn’t succeed with these cases. Most of her clients are female, she says, but she knows there are more boy victims who haven’t reached out to her. She’s aware of safety concerns on Grindr and expects someday she will also sue the mobile app under the same legal construct.
“When you’re dealing with the vulnerabilities of somebody who’s gay and who’s developing in our society, it’s tenfold more difficult and more impressionable,’’ she said. “Grindr holds a very, very, very high responsibility to these children.”
Cheyenne Ehrlich, owner of a company called SaferKid that works to protect children from dangers on the Internet, says lawmakers either have to amend Section 230 or require companies to impose age verification. Ehrlich has Grindr on his top list of most dangerous apps for children because of its adult content.
“If everybody in the line of fire — the management, the shareholders — all had liability for every instance of child sexual assault that occurred on one of these apps,” abuse would stop, he said. About Grindr, he warns: “No one under age 18 should use this app.”
Haley McNamara, vice president of the Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit, the National Center on Sexual Exploitation, says companies’ failure to identify online users’ age and identities goes well beyond Grindr. But she says concerns about online predators have reached a tipping point — and companies and the lawmakers should do what it takes to keep boys and girls safe. In addition to age verification, she says there is technology to detect when people are lying about their age.
She also believes it’s important to focus on individual apps like Grindr to raise awareness among friends and family and push individual companies to find solutions.
“This is a problem across so many different platforms and demographics, but each platform has to answer for the ecosystem that it creates,’’ she said. “The technology is there.”
There are 14-year-old boys on Grindr right now.
Chris Bates
Not everybody is seeking stricter laws. Kimberly Nelson, a professor of Community Health Sciences at the Boston University School of Public Health, says its natural for gay teens to head to Grindr to explore their sexuality. She said even if companies make it more difficult for young people to use their sites, it’s likely they will find workarounds. Instead, she said, teens should be given tools to better protect themselves, including advice on how to interact with people online and how to be careful about photo sharing.
“They’re not supposed to be on Grindr right now. They’re not supposed to be on these dating apps right now. They still are,’’ she said. “If we give them the tools that they need to interact in a way that is safe and protective for them, for me, that feels like the better intervention.”
Chris Bates, a Worcester-based trafficking survivor and advocate, wishes he had been given more warnings about sex trafficking in school when he was gay youth living in rural Connecticut. He says he first signed up for Grindr at 16 seeking attention that he lacked at home. With a simple check of a button, he lied about his age and entered into a world of adult men.
Bates, now 27 and a commissioner on the Massachusetts Unaccompanied Homeless Youth Commission, said he had no trouble meeting men he now describes as wolves who exploited him. In exchange for sex, they would offer him gifts of clothing, dinners and designer shoes, luxuries that his single mother couldn’t afford. He blames the men who purchased him but also the technology that made it so easy.
“There should be a responsibility on tech companies to make sure that young people are not on their apps,’’ he said. “There are 14-year-old boys on Grindr right now.”
Jenifer B. McKim and Phillip Martin are reporters with the GBH News Center for Investigative Reporting. Gabriela Lopez is an intern with the center and a journalism student at Boston University.
Source link
................ ..... ............. .
Pure | |
Ashley Maddison | |
Tinder | |
Bumble | |
Coffee Meets Bagel | |
Zoosk | |
OurTime | |
BlackPeopleMeet | |
ChristianMingle | |
BeNaughty | |
OkCupid | |
Plenty of Fish | |
Grindr | |
Her | |
FriendFinder-X |
worldwidemembers | millions every day | 50%/50% Male& Female |
50%/50% Male& Female | ||
3/5 hookup chance | Medium Sex Chance | GeographyUSA, Europe, International |
low fraud risk | Verificationactivate Facebook Dating | Mobile Appactivate Facebook Dating |
free of chargesubscription price | Free versionfree |
Ever since the Facebook Dating release in 2019, the app has been gaining popularity among singles who look for meaningful relationships rather than casual flings. Unlike Tinder and other similar platforms that match users based on their looks, Facebook dating service begs to differ. The app’s mission is to connect people on a deeper level by matching them according to shared interests, hobbies, and mutual acquaintances.
The idea behind the app is simple. Most of us already have Facebook profiles, and it’s no secret that many people have been using it to hit on each other online. On top of that, Facebook is one of the largest social networks, so adding an extension with matchmaking functionality was predictable.
The service does have a few interesting features like “Secret Crush” and “Second Look” — I’ll review them further in detail. Also, the Facebook dating app is free as long as you’re ok with it using your data. Plus, the service is LGBT-friendly. However, if you’re looking for discreet gay dating experience, that might not be the best platform to go to.
The dating feature is available for some countries in Asia, South America, and Canada. It was supposed to launch in Europe in early 2020, but many of my European friends complained that Facebook dating is not showing up on their phones.
Affordability
★★★★☆
The app is free to use and has no paid features whatsoever. So if you’re not a fan of paying for the dating services, Facebook Dating worth checking out.
Free Services
One of the best things about the Facebook dating app is that you can use it for free. However, as it always happens with the free stuff, there is a catch. Although you won’t have to pay any money, you’ll have to agree to share your data with Facebook. While some people take it as a deal-breaker, others cannot care less. But in case you’re looking for something more confidential, take a look at the Doublelist review.
Audience quality
★★★☆☆
The chances are that you won’t have to deal with fake profiles on Facebook Dating. The app will set you up with real people who attend the same events and joined the groups that you’re in. If you agree to match you with friends of friends, some of these matches might turn out to be the people that you already know. I recommend thinking twice before enabling this option, as you may end up in an awkward situation or bump into the crazy ex you hoped never to see again.
With the audience, everything depends on what you’re after. I had a lot more fun with the people I found on the new Craigslist Personals alternative services. So if you’re looking for a secret hookup, you’ll be better off with sites like Pure. But if you prefer long-term relationships and don’t care if your friends find out about your dating adventures, then Facebook Dating might be the right choice.
Age distribution
Facebook is one of the largest social media platforms of our time, and people of all ages are using it. The app allows you to filter people based on their age, and most likely, you won’t have any trouble with finding the match, regardless of how old or young you are. Although there is one strict rule — you have to be 18 and older to use the service.
Fakes and scammers
Facebook dating scams are rare. Since the app uses your personal data to set up the profile, scammers would have to dedicate a lot of time and effort in making a whole new fake persona. Usually, people are not that determined, and Facebook Dating remains mostly scam-free.
In rare cases, scammers may use compromised accounts. So if your new crush starts asking for money, it is best to block and report them right away.
Interface
★★★☆☆
The Facebook Dating desktop version is non-existing, and you can only access it via your mobile app. But you don’t need to rush to the app store: there is no separate app, you’ll find the dating service in your original Facebook app.
The interface of Dating is decent-looking and mostly intuitive. The app will guide you from filling in the profile information to introducing you several ways of meeting your potential date. Prepare to do a lot of reading and writing — you’ll have to fill in lots of info manually and figure out how all the matchmaking features work.
The biggest disappointment of Facebook Dating, in my opinion, is that the app is still work in progress. Be prepared to deal with Facebook Dating crushing once in a while on top of being slow to load. At times, I felt like I’m using the beta version of the app.
Signing up
To activate Facebook dating, go to your Facebook app and tap on the left icon with three horizontal lines. Then scroll down and tap on the “Dating” button.
If you don’t see it on the list, that means that the Facebook dating app is not working in your area, or you are not eligible to use it. This is a bummer, and a lot of my friends reported that Facebook Dating is not working for them.
After you hit that Dating button, you’ll need to set up your profile:
- Specify your gender and the gender of the person you would like to date.
- Set your dating location and confirm it by turning the GPS on.
- Pick your best photo from the ones you’ve got uploaded on Facebook.
- Review the detail.
- You’ll have an option to add your Instagram posts and answer personality questions, but that’s the part that you can finish later.
Altogether, the signing up process will take you less than five minutes.
Profile
One thing that you’ll notice straight away is that people who use Facebook Dating are serious about making a good first impression. I’ve come across many profiles, both male and female, that went into detail about who they are and who they hope to meet. Straight away, you’ll get the “long-term relationship search” vibe, which is not typical for the majority of dating apps.
I liked the part with personality questions, although it does feel a little “high-school.” The idea is to uncover your likes and dislikes and let them act as conversation starters. You’ll be asked to share your idea of a perfect day, name the last song you sang out loud, or revel your embarrassing childhood habit.
I have to mention that despite all promises to take care of my privacy, I was not comfortable with using a dating service that is connected with my primary social media profile. Even though your friends will have no idea that you’re using it, psychologically, you feel you’re being watched. I would rather use a separate app.
Searching
You can filter the users by various parameters such as age, religion, children, height, etc. It is also possible to choose whether you’re ok with matching with the friends of your friends.
Facebook Dating searching and matching model has a few distinctive features:
- You can discover people in groups and events.
- Matching is restricted to a hundred miles radius.
- You can send interest to the people you fancy.
- No swipe policy.
Getting in touch process is different from the majority of modern dating services. In the Facebook Dating app, you won’t deal with swiping at all. If you are not interested in the person, you need to tap on the “Not interested” button. But when you like somebody, you’ll have to initiate the conversation by leaving a comment to their picture or a question. You won’t be able to see that profile until the person gets back to you. And if they don’t, well, there’s always somebody else!
Chat
The Facebook Dating chat is separate from your regular Facebook chat. But the functionality is limited — you won’t be able to send pictures or videos. And if you’re a fan of Snapchat sexting, it is probably better not to practice it on Facebook Dating.
Security and privacy
★★☆☆☆
Although the Facebook dating profile and your Facebook profile are independent of each other, security was still a major concern for me.
Let’s be real, we’re all aware of the infamous Facebook data scandal. It is common practice that instead of charging you money, online companies are using your data to monetize their business. This means that if you use a service for free, most likely, you share your personal information in exchange.
There is an option that allows you not to match with friends of your friends, which is reassuring. It is hardly possible to keep things private when you’re using your main social media account to look for a hookup.
Special Features
Despite a few downsides, the Facebook Dating app has a lot to offer. There are several fun features of the service that often get positive reviews and make it stand out.
Secret Crush
Secret Crush feature feels a little “high-school,” but that makes it even more fun. You can add your real Facebook friends or Instagram followers that you fancy to your Secret Crush list.
If this person is also using Dating, the app will let them know that someone has a crush on them. If they happen to add you as their secret crush as well, you’ll both will be notified. You can add up to nine crushes in total but not more than once per day. Also, you’re free to remove them from the list whenever you want, and they will never know about it.
If it still sounds confusing, here’s a video about how it works:
Surprisingly enough, I did match with one special somebody from my circle, and it turned into one of the most rewarding hookups I’ve ever had. Thank you, Facebook Dating!
Second Look
Everyone deserves a second chance, and Facebook Dating allows you to change your mind. You’ll find the Second Look feature in the settings and review previously suggested matches.
Liked You list
Life would be so much easier if we knew in advance who is into us. The majority of dating apps monetize this idea and make you pay the membership fee to see people who liked you. Amazingly, in Facebook Dating, you can see them for free. And you’re free to return the compliment.
Put on hold
Sometimes, even the most stubborn of us need to take a break from the dating scene. But if you are not ready to delete your profile permanently, Facebook Dating allows you to pause it until you change your mind. And if you’ve matched with someone already, you can continue chatting to this person even when your profile is on hold.
Preemptive blocking
This is my second favorite feature of this service. How many times have you matched with your exes on Tinder? Maybe that’s because I date too much, but I’m bumping into the people I don’t want to see again on and offline the time. But Facebook Dating has got it covered!
The preemptive block list feature suggests you review your blacklists. This way, you can double-check that you won’t match with people you’re better off without, like that ex who broke your heart or a crazy stalker that you forgot to block.
Odds of success
★★★☆☆
That’s not the app for those who aim for one night stands, sexting, and casual hookups. But even if you look for something serious, it might not be the right option yet. I felt that the app was still in the testing mode, and it’s going to take some time before we’ll be able to enjoy it to the fullest.
So altogether, Facebook Dating left me with mixed feelings. On the one hand, the app has potential. Although it cannot boast a massive userbase, the quality of the audience is pleasantly surprising. You’ll come across a bunch of people looking for a solid long-term relationship, eager to start a conversation rather than wait until someone else makes a move. The app is designed to initiate meaningful communication and connect people on a deeper level.
Gay Dating Facebook Page
However, when it comes to user experience, it was not impressive. For many users, Facebook Dating simply doesn’t show up. Also, it is quite common that the app is loading too slow and even crushes once in a while. And considering Facebook history with data, it’s wise to think twice before giving it a go.
Matching algorithm
The quality of the matchmaking algorithm is somewhat questionable. Maybe that’s because of the relatively small userbase, but I’ve felt like my options were limited. I cannot say that I’m too picky, but during the first day of using Facebook Dating, I only liked two people out of nearly a hundred, and only one of them wrote me back.
The only thing that worked for me was the Secret Crush feature, and since it turned into an awesome date, I’ll give Facebook Dating a credit.
Gay Dating Facebook Ads
11 millionsmembers | 300k per months | 10%/90% Male& Female |
10%/90% Male& Female | ||
4/5 hookup chance | High Sex Chance | GeographyUSA, Europe, International |
low fraud risk | Verificationemail, phone, photo | Mobile AppiOS, Android |
$0.95 – $45.95subscription price | Free versionminimal set of functions |
Gay Dating Facebook Posts
Find your hookup adventure in one hour
Pure users are looking for adventures. They value anonymity, straightforwardness, and intimacy with no obligations.
The application works quickly and simply — no long registrations or endless questionnaires, no social media links or photo albums. The algorithm uses end-to-end encryption and deletes profiles and chats in an hour after they start.
Upload your favourite selfie, find the person who turns you on and start texting. You have one hour to arrange an adventure together.
You'll crave for more!